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Post by sue on Jan 20, 2009 14:31:41 GMT -5
I agree with all that has been said, here...I'm embarrassed to admit that I got so wrapped up in the story of the Invincible Sword, that I must have watched it some ten times before I realized that the whole episode was a dream!
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Post by queengwen on Jan 20, 2009 15:46:43 GMT -5
hmm.... I think there was some debate on IF it was a dream or rather it happened but she got a second chance and everything rewound and erased... I'm pretty sure that was a lively debate on WHAT it was.
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Jan 20, 2009 18:09:57 GMT -5
Personally, queengwen, I think that its too ambiguous to say for certain whether its one or tbe another.After all, at the end of the episode, we see her 'waking' from the whole fiasco, on the floor, with a raging looney about to plunge the invisible sword straight through her heart... Take that as a dream, or a rewind back to the basics, there really isn't any real way to tell.
Whatever the case may be, however, it certainly had a strong impact on Jacqueline. She was convinced enough of the sword's possessive powers in order to give up her freedom in exchange for sparring the soul of its next possible wielder. Would a simple dream be able to make such an impression? Maybe. Who knows?
Thoughts?
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Post by sue on Jan 20, 2009 18:41:19 GMT -5
hmm.... I think there was some debate on IF it was a dream or rather it happened but she got a second chance and everything rewound and erased... I'm pretty sure that was a lively debate on WHAT it was. See, that WAS where I had been going, but I just couldn't reconcile the rewind (which is how it IS portrayed, after all) with any sort of reality! So, one day it just dawned on me that it must have just been a dream...you know how you can THINK a whole episode of somthing in a moment, yet, it would take forever to explain it all in words? Something like that. And, very likely, the sword WAS controlling that...it WAS a magical sword, after all. And the images during the "episode" of the sword electrically controlling things...Happens twice, I think...support that. |
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Post by queengwen on Jan 21, 2009 6:19:57 GMT -5
Personally, queengwen, I think that its too ambiguous to say for certain whether its one or tbe another.After all, at the end of the episode, we see her 'waking' from the whole fiasco, on the floor, with a raging looney about to plunge the invisible sword straight through her heart... Take that as a dream, or a rewind back to the basics, there really isn't any real way to tell. Whatever the case may be, however, it certainly had a strong impact on Jacqueline. She was convinced enough of the sword's possessive powers in order to give up her freedom in exchange for sparring the soul of its next possible wielder. Would a simple dream be able to make such an impression? Maybe. Who knows? Thoughts? Which leads back into the debate... personally, a dream wouldn't have that much effect on someone, not like something really happening...I also think it was the sword's magical properties that controlled things. |
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Jan 21, 2009 7:50:27 GMT -5
Personally, queengwen, I think that its too ambiguous to say for certain whether its one or tbe another.After all, at the end of the episode, we see her 'waking' from the whole fiasco, on the floor, with a raging looney about to plunge the invisible sword straight through her heart... Take that as a dream, or a rewind back to the basics, there really isn't any real way to tell. Whatever the case may be, however, it certainly had a strong impact on Jacqueline. She was convinced enough of the sword's possessive powers in order to give up her freedom in exchange for sparring the soul of its next possible wielder. Would a simple dream be able to make such an impression? Maybe. Who knows? Thoughts? Which leads back into the debate... personally, a dream wouldn't have that much effect on someone, not like something really happening...I also think it was the sword's magical properties that controlled things. To play the devil's advocate, there's plenty of personal stories where people suddenly turn around and change their lives because of a dream that 'felt so real.' People who come out of comas often report having lived a different life in their minds. It really, really depends on the individual.  You'll have to elaborate on why you think it was the sword's magical properties that affected Jacqueline. We have no notion of the sword being 'magical' in what I suppose we could call the 'awake' portion of the episode other than Gunther's claim that it is Notung and Jacqueline's belief. Suggestion alone is a powerful thing... |
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Post by queengwen on Jan 21, 2009 19:04:00 GMT -5
why? She wasn't hit HARD enough to induce coma-like state for one...
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Jan 21, 2009 23:33:23 GMT -5
why? She wasn't hit HARD enough to induce coma-like state for one... Hmm. Really, how do you know? After all, she went flying across the room and hit the wall, the fireplace mantle and then the floor. Arguably, that has the potential to cause some severe head-trauma, don't you think? I used the coma example, but that is just one of the possible deeper states of unconsciousness that can manifest in reality-like visions. Concussions make people see things too. Trauma isn't even necessary; even moderate levels of stress can induce psychosis in ordinary, healthy people. My point is, there's plenty of possibilities, but there are no absolutes; all we can discuss is which possibilities fit more? Personally, I find it interesting that the writers would include that bit as a prelude to the whole adventure, and then show us Jacqueline waking up in the same spot at the end of the episode. Book-ending the episode with 'cause for knock-out' and 'waking up from a knock out' to me means leaning strongly in favor of 'it was all a dream.' In the interest of a friendly debate, I'd like to see you elaborate on why you specifically think this whole ordeal was a 'second chance' and not a dream (the process of eliminating 'if its not one, then its the other by default' withstanding). Ever the devil's advocate, I have my reasoning as to how it could be possible, however, since you wanted a debate, I'd hate to see myself talk more than I already am. |
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Post by sue on Jan 22, 2009 1:38:37 GMT -5
I thought she looked like a rag doll being thrown by an angry little brother in that shot! almost surprised she survived at all!
sort of like the Wizard of Oz?
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Post by queengwen on Jan 22, 2009 6:23:57 GMT -5
I think it was more of... after she killed her man... she realized what she was doing and was incrediable upset, crying, and praying.... and that's when it started to 'rewind', not end..but rewind.... we see her like watching everything go backwards.... dreams do not 'rewind' they just end and you feel funny like if it was the 'real-like' dream... at least I do.  love to debate more...but gotta go work... teach them kiddies something. |
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Jan 22, 2009 8:03:27 GMT -5
Maybe. After all, it is a common trope in the 'I learned something really important today,' category. ... dreams do not 'rewind' they just end and you feel funny like if it was the 'real-like' dream... at least I do. Again, how do you know 'dreams do not rewind, they just end'? Have you ever heard any of your friends describing dreams? They rarely ever follow such rigid absolutes, even ones that closely mimic reality. We are talking about a medium that lets people fly like birds or let them arrange furniture on the ceiling or even spontaneously generate icecream cones in their hand... and yet, you're saying that they're not beyond rewinding themselves? The thing about dreams is that they oscillate between completely probable, logical and blatantly outrageous with plenty of middle ground. Whatever the extreme, however, it doesn't negate their psychological impact. After all, one of the theories out there concerning why we dream is that dreams are a way for our mind to 'rehearse' needed skills, teaching us how to react in certain situations, and sometimes go as far as intuitively warn us about something or someone. Interesting. |
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Post by queengwen on Jan 22, 2009 17:07:52 GMT -5
Darring...
I think you'd find something for anything I could say... so let's agree to disagree.
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Jan 22, 2009 17:32:28 GMT -5
Darring... I think you'd find something for anything I could say... so let's agree to disagree. Uh, I thought you said you wanted a debate? This is not me trying to override your points or anything, I just thought you were going to tackle what I have to say in a similar manner; I love discussions like these. We used to do this is in the classroom all the time. Sorry if I came across as rude. I suppose there was just a misunderstanding. To me, a debate is going back and forth, gathering ideas from opposition, building on them, and then making a counter-point. |
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Post by queengwen on Jan 23, 2009 6:16:16 GMT -5
True... but I really don't have time for one. Work... Wedding stuff... and I gotta learn some French before I go to Paris this summer... a busy load... |
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Jan 23, 2009 13:32:14 GMT -5
True... but I really don't have time for one. Work... Wedding stuff... and I gotta learn some French before I go to Paris this summer... a busy load... .... Right. Takes five minutes to draft an argument, but oh well. Always a pleasure. *bows gallantly* |
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