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Post by sue on Apr 26, 2008 20:00:32 GMT -5
Not a romantic running away together, just a back-up plan. A security blanket, if you will.
I doubt that J would have expected any life together to have been anything more than as "like a brother", at first.
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Apr 30, 2008 19:10:41 GMT -5
That's what I really love about this series. You can really see the relationship between these two characters progress. Personally, however, I would've put "Exile" after "The DaVinci Notebook" in the episode order. It seems that in the "Davinci" episode there's almost a step backward in Jacques/D'Artagnan's relationship from the Exile progress... Anyone agree?
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Post by jeantre16 on Apr 30, 2008 21:22:16 GMT -5
LOL Daring, that would mess up my story, In-Between the Lines! I built that extra scene on the fact that D and J had seen a deeper side to each other in Exile. ;D  Yet, after such a "heavy" ep (Exile), the "Da Vinci's Notebook" was a toss back in a way. |
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Post by queengwen on Jun 14, 2008 15:24:57 GMT -5
Honestly... there were several times after a 'important' scene in the ship..that they ignored come next episode..that did drive me crazy... this was prob my 2nd fav... and after JUST re-waching it for the 8th time... I still 'catch' little glances... D'Artagnan's jaw hitting the ground at seeing HER as a WOMEN for the first time is priceless... you could just see cupid's arrow hitting him square in the heart in that scene... Charles' arrogance and 'commands' tend to get on my nerves... but prefectly like the KING he is... she would've never lasted... Jacqueline is not a 'meek, bidable' kind of gal... which is what attracts D'Artagnan to her w/ out his seeing her as a female UNTIL this episode. |
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Post by sue on Nov 29, 2008 20:12:04 GMT -5
Wow! I could just go on and on, but suffice it to say, the development of the romance, most of the acting, etc., makes this my favorite episode, despite NUMEROUS historical and logical issues. I sat down to type up comments, and came up with about 3 pages of them!  I don't think anyone wants to see a post that long!  |
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Nov 29, 2008 23:39:37 GMT -5
I sat down to type up comments, and came up with about 3 pages of them! I don't think anyone wants to see a post that long! Actually, I would love to see your comments! If you don't feel comfortable posting them here, send me a pm!  |
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RK9
Captured by Mazarin
Posts: 275
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Post by RK9 on Nov 30, 2008 0:23:39 GMT -5
Even as an S/J shipper, I thought this episode was quite good, actually - though yes, when I lent my tapes to my eng lit teacher she commented: "They took quite a few liberties with history, didn't they?" Not having much knowledge of French/English history anyway (I barely remember Malaysian history as it is, ugh), I'm able to just enjoy it as an episode. I loved the bantering between Jacqueline and d'Artagnan, when she was leaving the garrison - "Nice rump, must be of good stock", "Perhaps I prefer you to jump in the river!", "Skinny-dipping? Marvelous!" ... "With a canon-ball around your neck." Always makes me giggle, and shows off their still-developing friendship. Referring to the above comments, I have to say I think that I don't see any discrepancies between their relationship in this episode and the following Da Vinci's Notebook. The chemistry and bantering between them has deepened in DVN, and it feels natural, like it developed from what they had in this episode. I know they became a lot closer in this episode, but not all that much closer - more like maybe they were still feeling out trust and friendship, and maybe they took a step towards a deeper, closer bond, but in DVN they haven't moved all that much further either, and anyway, I think in DVN we see more of her relationship being developed with Ramon and Siroc - especially Siroc. *grin* Now, that's my pet peeve. How could they send Ramon and Siroc and furlough! An entire episode with no Ramon/Siroc goodness? Ugh! We've only seen three episodes prior to this, and we don't see much of those two in the previous eps either - this is about the Young Blades, not d'Art and Jacqueline and a handful of other minor characters! Like Ramon says in his rhapsody at the end: "Mazarin and Cromwell, mounting a coup - I was away, what could I do?" Oh, ISH... Right. I never liked that Charles Stuart dude much anyway. I don't think much of people who don't keep their words. Jacqueline didn't love him, I don't think - maybe she felt lust, but I doubt it was love. That's for Siroc... or for those who don't like that flavor of tea, d'Artagnan. And oh, now that I come to think of it, I wonder why they didn't employ that whole brother idea any more? I'd have liked to have seen a continuation of it - Jacques Leponte, brother of fugitive Jacqueline Roget... I dunno, it just appeals to me and would have been fun to see. But that's just me... Didn't we once have the actor who played Charles on this site? Before renovations? I think his username was monkeybaron, and I seem to recall he gave some good insight into his character's way of thinking... though I don't remember what was said. Oh well. I think that's enough, off-hand. I might add more after seeing the ep again. Heh. Oh, by the way, does anyone else think that Louis and his entire family were rather silly in the beginning? Though I did enjoy how he found his backbone and stood up to Cromwell at the end. That was fun. |
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Post by sue on Nov 30, 2008 4:04:18 GMT -5
I sat down to type up comments, and came up with about 3 pages of them! I don't think anyone wants to see a post that long! Actually, I would love to see your comments! If you don't feel comfortable posting them here, send me a pm! No, seriously, It's THREE PAGES long! I tried to edit it down, and it got longer! ;D |
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Nov 30, 2008 10:18:23 GMT -5
All the better, Sue! I love any sort of reading material concerning YB Send it over or post here, please! |
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Post by sue on Nov 30, 2008 13:19:46 GMT -5
Okay, you asked for it. There won't be much left for anyone else to comment on. I love this episode. It’s hard to explain, though, because there is so much that just doesn’t fit…I’ll try to keep it down to a minimum. First fight scene is fun, if a bit unrealistic. WHO takes two swords, and swings one around behind her back to ward off a blow? And why does a soldier come up behind her, not using his weapon? But still, it’s neat to see Jacqueline fight off three or four of the Cardinal’s men singlehandedly. One does sort of wonder, though, why she is traveling with the dress? Just because she is on furlough doesn’t mean that the people she meets wouldn’t have seen the wanted posters. And how did she fit all that fabric into that tiny little saddlebag? Queen Anne’s attitude towards her son is pretty callous. WHERE is she going “on holiday”, anyway I like the part where we see that Duval turns to D’Artagnan for advice. I think that should have happened more often. I think it would have been good to have seen that Duval respects him, and treats him differently than the others. One understands Charles’ instant attraction to his rescuing angel, his “Diana with a Sword”, but truly, the instant desire to marry her, make her his queen, is a bit beyond believable. It is common knowledge that he was quite the roué…had numerous mistresses and illegitimate children. But to make a commoner his queen…not terribly likely. A deposed king in pursuit of regaining his throne probably wouldn’t make such a foolish move. Now, to promise her the world, and make her one of what eventually became his string of mistresses, THAT is a bit more believable. Still,Jacqueline’s instant decision to give this complete stranger information on how to contact her is a bit strange. I LOVE Grandmama! She is so…senile??? A bit hard of hearing? Wrapped up in her own thoughts? Why does she have such a hard time understanding what Louis says? And she is SOOOO dependent on men! Oh! I finally figured out who she is…must be Marie de Medici. Interestingly, she was dead for ten years before the show begins…Grandmama could NOT have been Anne’s mother (by the way, a princess of France, and sister of Louis XIII wonder why the BOURONs didn’t die out at the same time as the Habsburgs. They were JUST as inbred! Love how D’Artagnan spies on Jacqueline and Charles when she returns. He has obviously been missing her while she was on furlough, but the tightrope he walks between his jealousy and fear of stepping over the boundary they have drawn is amusing to watch, here. He tries so hard to find out what’s going on without making her mad. It really doesn’t seem likely that Jacqueline, who so adamantly does NOT want to become “a drudge to some [man]”, would so instantly fall into the arms of this English stranger. But she then turns and tells him she can’t leave, because she fights for “justice for France. “ She uses that excuse in other episodes, but it doesn’t really sound genuine, more like she is using it as an excuse to NOT live her own life. The whole dialogue, though, about Jacqueline stripping is a bit off…HOW is this man, at what? 6’3 or 4” going to fit into Jacqueline’s uniform? She is so slight, and even with the slightly oversized uniform, it would never fit him, (any more than D’Artagnan’s would have, later on, nor “Clive’s” fit D’Artagnan! What are those uniforms made of, anyway? That they should be so flexible in size? I want some of that miracle fabric!) And then, Charles says: “Take off your clothes, all of them”. Jacqueline responds: “You would speak to my sister like that?” HOW does that follow? It just doesn’t make any sense. Unless, of course, you are in on the secret. I don’t buy it for a minute that Jacqueline would ever have gone to England with Charles. At least not when he proposes in the cabin. I think she only hinted that she might in order to get D’Artagnan out of prison, her loyalty to him runs that deep. And Charles only convinces her, to a point, later on, when they are ALL outlaws, tempting her with the freedom to fight Mazarin more effectively from the English throne (which, by the way, he doesn’t actually have). I do like the way she describes the “revenge” of her father’s death. It certainly didn’t SOLVE anything for her! The scene in the prison is sweet…the way she reacts when she first see the result of the beating tells a great deal about how deeply she really feels for him, even if she wouldn’t admit to it, yet. I don’t get why she waits to knock out the guard. She should have just done that right away. And they ought to have at least closed the cell door, if not lock it, making their escape a bit longer to notice, and thus giving them a bit more time to get out before being pursued. As they are leaving the prison, and he finally has the chance to ask who the mystery man is, D’Artagnan turns to Jacques “Social climber.” Really cute. But then the torturer comes out after them, and he says: “Back for another session?” It almost sounds as if D’Artagnan was doing the torturing. And then Jacques turns to Charles and says: “He does this kind of stuff, it drives me insane!” It’s as if there has BEEN such a scene before. The only person he has dueled to date, with the exception of the scene in the café BEFORE she joins the Musketeers, is HER. Then, after watching him take another beating, she finally pistol whips the torturer, and he complains “I nearly had him”. Jacques’ response: “You certainly did.” Back at the cabin, when Charles makes the comment about Jacqueline being a handful, “…or two.” D’Artagnan shoots him a subtle but nasty glare. Obviously, this is NOT something he wants to hear. I think it’s a bit too crude for his taste, the unspoken line something like: Don’t talk about her that way! And the subtle facial expressions that get bandied about in the rest of this scene…this is why I like this episode so much. There is so much subtext, and it’s all in the acting…the writing, I think, leaves something to be desired. The intense sense that when D’Artagnan walks back into the cabin, he has interrupted a very intimate moment is well done. Jacqueline’s discomfort at knowing that he saw something…the simmering jealousy that you just know is there. I wonder what ELSE he’s thinking, as the camera closes in on a tiny bit of a smile…that she at least will get something good out of life, even if he isn’t destined to be a part of it? Pride? As if, maybe, he has something to do with her “success” (such as it looks like she is going to achieve)? This next piece is only in the extra scenes that weren’t aired on PAX: I wonder if it would have been normal for Mazarin and the Grandmother to wake up the soundly-sleeping king, tickling his feet with a feather, to demand he sign an executive mandate to disband the Musketeers, right then and there, in the middle of the night…kind of weird, that scene. Maybe that’s why that was cut from the shorter version. I don’t see the Grandmother as having any power or strength of any sort. She’s this weak woman who screams and nearly faints at every turn, and then, suddenly, she’s all over this treaty, enough to wake the king from a sound sleep at an obviously unseemly hour. Oh, and LOVE the reinforced-toe, nude ladies’ pantyhose that the king wears to bed! LOLOL. Then the KING begs permission of his Prime Minister to go back to sleep. In the cabin, Jacqueline asks D’Artagnan if he would go to England with her, and he responds…not to her question, but that royal marriages are about alliances. It’s not a logical response. There should be a little something else there. They haven’t discussed MARRIAGE OR love, she has only asked about leaving the country. To be honest, though, NO ONE married for love in those days. At least the nobility (of which, it must be noted, D’Artagnan is one.) would not have had that luxury. Jacqueline’s parents MIGHT have had such a luxury, but then, most people married simply for convenience, even among the peasantry. Nobles had mistresses and affairs with those they loved. Marriage was, in fact, for alliances…land. I think my biggest complaint about this episode, though, is the historical inaccuracy. There’s an awful lot that I think I’m being really picky about, but WHY would the writers bring Charles to France, when, in truth, he had spent nearly his entire life in the French courts, avoiding certain death because of the revolts in England, that resulted in Cromwell’s taking power in the first place? WHY does Louis have no idea who this person is? They were first cousins! Even if Charles had NOT lived in France, in the courts, WITH Louis, most of his life, they would have known, each, who the other WAS. Louis should have known, even those who were NOT related to him, WHO the royal heads of Europe WERE. But the whole “Who are YOU!?” scene just doesn’t ring true at all. In fact, the original musketeers travelled to England, to try to save the neck of Charles I at the insistence of Louis XIII! (They failed, but that is beside the point). Surely, Mazarin’s men, the prison guard, even the Musketeers would have recognized him. I also think it’s convenient of the writers to simply forget that Anne was, in fact, a SPANISH princess, sister of the King of Spain. And, this has been brought up before, but WHERE did Jacqueline, a poor and simple farm girl, even as a musketeer, get all those expensive clothes?  She begins the episode putting on the homespun wool dress that she wore in the first episode. It makes sense that she might have another, possibly newer, but no more glamorous dress, for church, but to have all that velvet, lace and jacquard silk! And, how many costumes does she have??? Four? Five? Why does Charles have to beat up the guard in the palace? Didn’t he take D’Artagnan’s pistol when he took his clothes? Incredible aim Jacqueline shows when shooting the gun out of Charles’ hand! And the grandmother’s scream is precious! Then, as she is convincing Louis that Charles can’t be a traitor…the look they share is priceless. When Charles asks Jacques for a “private word,” D’Artagnan watches for a moment, then, turns, as if giving her to him. That’s it! I know when I’m licked. Gotta love the flirtation between the King and handmaid Solange! Really cute! Nice little diversion. They should have continued that into other episodes, particularly since she is the same actress that plays the part in so many others…anyone else notice the OTHER regular handmaid? The blonde? (her name is Isabelle). Different actress in this episode, and she stays completely in the background, but the actress who plays her through most of the series also played Tobias’ mistress in Robson Arms! HA! |
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Post by thedaringhattrick on Nov 30, 2008 19:12:25 GMT -5
I knew you would make some excellent points, Sue. I'm glad you decided to post your insights.
I was thinking that too, actually. The one thing about this whole episode that irks me is how emotionally befuddled Jacqueline is. It's like she can't decide what she wants; love or a musketeer life, because its obvious to her that she can't have both. I too get the impression that (at least in this particular episode) she's just telling herself she wants justice... I'm not very convinced that she does.
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RK9
Captured by Mazarin
Posts: 275
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Post by RK9 on Nov 30, 2008 23:15:52 GMT -5
Gee, I must be the only one who thinks that Jacqueline's portrayal of inner turmoil was realistic, then. I mean, some of her responses were a little off and weird, as sue pointed out, but otherwise, I thought KC did a bang-up job of showing how emotionally confused Jacqueline was, especially at this point in the series where her relationship currently is with d'Artagnan, and with her adjusting to life as a musketeer, and figuring out what to do about Mazarin, and now she's got a handsome stranger asking her to be his Queen. She's just a farmer's daughter, after all, not a trained and educated lady who would be more prepared for such situations. Can we blame her for not knowing what to do and how to react?
As to some of sue's other comments - well, about the "He does this kind of stuff, it drives me crazy." There HAS been such scenes before - I suspect Jacqueline wasn't referring exclusively to d'Artagnan wanting to stay and fight off the jailer without help from her, but rather all the dumb things that d'Artagnan sometimes does - he drives me crazy too! He's stubborn, reckless, infinitely brave without always thinking things through before he acts... yup, drives me completely nuts when he does things that seem stupid to me and the rest of the female race but are undoubtedly about pride and honor to him and other males like him. Or maybe it's just testosterone, because to insist on fighting his torturer alone without Jacqueline's help is something only a guy would do, I feel. LOL, this is why I prefer Siroc.
And I have to disagree with what you said about d'Artagnan only having dueled Jacqueline before. I find that highly unlikely - d'Artagnan, son of THE d'Artagnan, has become a musketeer, of private rank, and he's never dueled with anyone prior to Jacqueline? No, I would say that up to this point in the show, we have only ever seen him duel Jacqueline (and that little scene in the cafe that you mentioned). But I don't believe for a moment that he's never dueled anyone else before. Even if we don't count practice duels to keep his swordsmanship skills sharp, I'm sure he's been sent on missions with Ramon, Siroc and the others in the musketeer corps, and has dueled other people - with his personality, I highly doubt that a week would have gone by when he was younger without him challenging someone to a duel, in fun or not. And when he complains to Jacqueline and she responds, "You certainly did", that is sarcasm right there, a fine example of my favorite type of Young Blades humor. I love, love, love their verbal spars as much as their physical ones, and I always enjoy it when Jacqueline's sharp tongue cuts him down as easily as her sword does.
And about them not recognizing Charles II - surely it is not that implausible? Even if the originals went to save Charles I, well, the Young Blades weren't there, right? How would they know what his son looks like? In that time, especially - if Louis went out on his own, dressed in commoner clothing and without his ensemble of caretakers and guards, would the public know who he was? Heck, even now I haven't much clue what our Yang di-Pertuan Agong looks like (though thankfully I can recognize our Prime Minister). Maybe Louis should have recognized him... but the musketeers couldn't be expected to know who he was, I think.
Sorry if I misinterpreted anything you were saying, but I had to throw in my thoughts when I read what you'd typed. There are a few other things you mentioned where I find my POV differs from yours, but I think they're not quite as important.
And I'm still wondering why Mark Hildreth and Zak Santiago weren't even IN this episode, except for Ramon's rhapsody at the very end. Ugh. But it was enjoyable nonetheless - like I said, I can live with historical inaccuracies.
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Post by sue on Nov 30, 2008 23:57:02 GMT -5
No! You haven't read me right! I said JAQUELINE had never seen D'Artagnan go off half-cocked and fight with someone that way! Of COURSE we can infer that he does...it is simply that she has this line that says he does it "...all the time", yet we have never seen him "do it all the time!" And I never said that the musketeers should have recognized Charles II because their predecessors tried to rescue Charles I. I said that LOUIS and his family should have recognized, or at the very least, known WHO Charles II was, because they were FIRST COUSINS! And because royalty should at least know who the others were. NOT TO MENTION the simple fact that CHARLES II had taken refuge IN FRANCE for all of his adult life! He had been living in Louis' court, for crying out loud! They lived in the same homes! Of COURSE Louis should have known who he was! As for the acting...I have no problem with Karen's portrayal of what was written...I only think that they wrote the part a bit off. I think that she might have been conflicted, but some of the lines are just poorly written...they make no sense...to repeat myself...The bit where Charles tells her to remove her uniform, and she responds with "You would speak to my sister that way?" It simply makes no sense, unless you believe that Charles has figured out that Jacques and Jacqueline are the same person, (and that she knows it) which he clearly has not. As for Siroc vs D'Artagnan, let me simply say this...Siroc isn't strong enough to take on Jacqueline! And he has, at least as far as we have seen in 13 episodes, absolutely ZERO interest in the opposite sex, or in anything besides his inventions. He simply isn't at that stage in his own development. I've read a couple of stories to that effect, and they are generally well-crafted, but I still say that D'Artagnan, silly, testosterone infused, and "flippant" as he is, is the perfect match for her wit. She brings out the best in him, causes him to grow up and mature, and he softens her edges. No WAY could she really wind up with Siroc. There, I've said it. Now I'm done. |
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RK9
Captured by Mazarin
Posts: 275
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Post by RK9 on Dec 1, 2008 1:46:59 GMT -5
There, I knew I'd forgotten something. That's the other thing I thought when I read your comments - I meant to say that even though Jacqueline might not have, as you said, seen him duel and says that he does it "all the time"... I can explain that.
The moments "in-between".
Even with other shows, we are led to believe that at least some time would have passed in between episodes, during which things happen that we do not see. It doesn't change that their friendship would still be developing, and they'd be living their lives even though it isn't show in the next episode, or even referenced to. So, I think it plausible that Jacqueline is either a) honestly saying that he does things like this "all the time" - but we, the audience, do not see all the dumb things he does (though we do know he does them), or b) she's exaggerating, in that way people do sometimes. Even I do it sometimes, I'm sure everyone does. Like when my mother slipped food from the table to my dog, hoping I wouldn't see, I was like: "Mom! You do that all the time! She's gonna get spoiled rotten and expect scraps from the table every time if you keep doing that!"
It isn't that my mom does it all the time, it's that... how to explain it? Like, I complain about her doing it even though she doesn't, because it irritates the heck out of me while she's doing it.
I can go with either, but I also see it as the usual type of YB humor. So, not really an inaccuracy or that strange and comment-worthy, except as the usual amusing d'Art/Jac banter that I always enjoy so much.
And hey, that other comment of yours about Jacqueline and Charles and that "You would speak to my sister that way" has given me a new theory, seeing as I'm halfway through rewatching the episode. I was keeping a closer eye on their reactions and everything, and now I think - maybe she was testing him, trying to figure out if Charles had figured out that Jacques and her sister were the same, uh, "man". Coolness. Maybe.
And since this isn't for discussing Siroc/Jacqueline, I'll stop there.
Boy, haven't had this much excitement here in a long while, eh? No hard feelings, sue? (Making sure I don't detect anger or anything in that last post of yours; it's more difficult to tell online.)
Edit: I rewatched the stripping bit - scratch that earlier theory. Now I think she's trying to distract him by bringing up Jacqueline. I mean, he's definitely distracted by the mention of her name, and suddenly she's offering the possibility of a deal - a deal that might get him the girl he wants. Hm. Have to watch a bit more before I expand on that theory.
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Post by sue on Dec 1, 2008 13:07:56 GMT -5
There, I knew I'd forgotten something. That's the other thing I thought when I read your comments - I meant to say that even though Jacqueline might not have, as you said, seen him duel and says that he does it "all the time"... I can explain that. The moments "in-between". Even with other shows, we are led to believe that at least some time would have passed in between episodes, during which things happen that we do not see. It doesn't change that their friendship would still be developing, and they'd be living their lives even though it isn't show in the next episode, or even referenced to. So, I think it plausible that Jacqueline is either a) honestly saying that he does things like this "all the time" - but we, the audience, do not see all the dumb things he does (though we do know he does them), or b) she's exaggerating, in that way people do sometimes. Even I do it sometimes, I'm sure everyone does. Like when my mother slipped food from the table to my dog, hoping I wouldn't see, I was like: "Mom! You do that all the time! She's gonna get spoiled rotten and expect scraps from the table every time if you keep doing that!" It isn't that my mom does it all the time, it's that... how to explain it? Like, I complain about her doing it even though she doesn't, because it irritates the heck out of me while she's doing it. I can go with either, but I also see it as the usual type of YB humor. So, not really an inaccuracy or that strange and comment-worthy, except as the usual amusing d'Art/Jac banter that I always enjoy so much. Okay, I could buy that, if there were SOME mention of it at some other point, but there isn't...yet. Actually, THAT could be one of the reasons that the next episode really belongs before this one...except that D'Artagnan is a bit reluctant to jump into a duel, even with Bernard, to defend the honor of Mireille, but that's a discussion for NEXT week! Still, there has been NO mention or indication, to this point, that D'Artagnan is quick to the sword...or that it irks Jacqueline, so that the comment, especially when watching the show in order, makes less sense. It's almost as if there were scenes cut from previous episodes. Boy, haven't had this much excitement here in a long while, eh? No hard feelings, sue? (Making sure I don't detect anger or anything in that last post of yours; it's more difficult to tell online.) Oh, no! Excitement is good! I have WAAAAY too much time to ruminate over these things, and have needed to discuss my thoughts... No anger, just the enjoyment of a good debate! [quote author=rk9 board=episodesyb thread=801 post=14615 time=1228114019 Edit: I rewatched the stripping bit - scratch that earlier theory. Now I think she's trying to distract him by bringing up Jacqueline. I mean, he's definitely distracted by the mention of her name, and suddenly she's offering the possibility of a deal - a deal that might get him the girl he wants. Hm. Have to watch a bit more before I expand on that theory. [/quote] Interesting point. Maybe...I suppose Charles WAS simple enought do be so easily distracted. It DID work, if that was the plan...He wouldn't be likely to notice the non sequitur nature of the comment. Maybe it only takes having watched the episode so many times... |
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I don't think anyone wants to see a post that long! 
She begins the episode putting on the homespun wool dress that she wore in the first episode. It makes sense that she might have another, possibly newer, but no more glamorous dress, for church, but to have all that velvet, lace and jacquard silk! And, how many costumes does she have??? Four? Five? 
